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#57695

Jeff Dege (Visitor)

how countries are in the world "The Only Thing They Learn" -- does anyone else find it irritating?
Ultimately one can say one thing: Bismarck was one very very smart bastard. Long before the introduction of his social welfare codex he was treating his own serfs in what would've been considered an enlightened paternalistic fashion, in terms of looking after their welfare. Yep. Just like the socialists have always promised to do.

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#57696

Dan Goodman (Visitor)

how countries are in the world "The Only Thing They Learn" -- does anyone else find it irritating?

Wayne Throop < This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it wrote in message : This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it (John Savard) : There hasn't been much in the way of science fiction that has seriously : asked - why do utopias fail, and how close can we get? Really? Niven's anarchy parks, Heinlein's Covenant (and why it failed) and lunar libertopia (and why it fell apart), and it seems to me many more (oh, say, The Machine Stops for one) don't count? If not, why not? For that matter, even The Time Machine exposes why teh Eloi aren't really the utopian treehuggers they seem to be, and why. Indeed, exploring why apparent utopias aren't, and why not, seems pretty much an SF staple. Well, how else can it be? If the utopia works there's no story. You can write a story about the struggle to produce a utopia (eg _Seetee Shock_), or you can write one where it turns out not to really be utopia, and there has to be a struggle to overthrow it (eg _If This Goes On_). But if it really is utopia, then you've reached the end of history and there's nothing more to write about. There's Phyllis Ann Karr's _At Amberleaf Fair_, which portrays a society whose members don't consider it a utopia because it has obvious flaws. For example, there's a village which has one resident who shocks the rest by gossiping.

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#57697

William December Starr (Visitor)

how countries are in the world "The Only Thing They Learn" -- does anyone else find it irritating?
In a word, fembots. Everything's better with fembots! Two possibilities: a) The fembots will be a poor substitute, because a relationship on the intellectual and emotional levels is required. So the men who must resort to fembots are still angry and discontented, or b) the fembots are so good that they are sentient, and therefore they revolt. And take over? Is that a bug or a feature?

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#57698

Peter Huebner (Visitor)

how countries are in the world "The Only Thing They Learn" -- does anyone else find it irritating?

Bismarck was also the classic loose cannon , one of those totally radical arch-conservatives, almost as contemptuous of the upper-class twits whose interests he was defending as of the political opposition. He's on record with a number of remarks like Only chance makes the same man a White or a Red , and toward the end of his life If I had to do it all again I would be democrat and republican . Nods. Only: I wouldn't call him a loose cannon. That man would not do unpredictable stupid things, he would do the smart thing that his reasoning told him was the right thing to do and which should *work*. He was utterly non-partisan in that respect. And rationalist. To me, that is a merit, and not a failing (as in loose canon == unpredictable jackass ). While my political views could hardly be further away from his on the spectrum, I very much respect him for that. It is rare, particularly in todays politics, to meet a man who will do what's right, rather than what brings in the votes or what's partisan or politically correct. Not that he had to worry much about the votes, he was nominated as chancellor by the Kaiser, not elected. But, as you said, he held fools in very low esteem and would not cater to them. They called him the 'iron chancellor' if I remember that right. -P.

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#57699

Peter Huebner (Visitor)

how countries are in the world "The Only Thing They Learn" -- does anyone else find it irritating?
Isn't that the basic idea behind the Culture books? I consider 'The Culture' to be an anarchistic utopia of sorts. And that brings me to wondering out loud why nobody has mentioned The Disposessed yet. Another 'utopia' with shortcomings, and somewhat non-gandian coercion attempts. -P.

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#57700

Gene (Visitor)

how countries are in the world "The Only Thing They Learn" -- does anyone else find it irritating?
Nods. Only: I wouldn't call him a loose cannon. That man would not do unpredictable stupid things, he would do the smart thing that his reasoning told him was the right thing to do and which should work. As brilliant as Bismarck was, did he ever ask himself if Germany might not be better off not united?

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